by Elder Mike Chon

As my children grow up they begin to develop a passion for certain activities or toys more than other ones. If you mention certain games or sports you can see and feel the excitement in my kids’ eyes as they begin screaming and yelling. They have so much fun playing that they can literally play until the next day unless one of us tells them that they need to stop. Their passion to play can be attributed to their age and being children, but it reminds me of how easily we allow our age or our sophistication to prevent us from having passion for those things that we should be passionate about.

When it comes to our relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are we excited or passionate about the things that He is passionate about? Maybe we don’t run around screaming and yelling, but do we get excited about coming to worship Him on a Sunday, or reading about Him in the pages of Scripture, or the opportunity to share about Him to a friend that does not know Him? When my children receive a new toy they are excited to play with it, but once they realize that it isn’t as much fun as they imagined, they lose interest rather quickly. Some time I wonder if some of us got excited when we first understood the gospel then after realizing the cost of following Christ, we lost interest and lost our passion to follow Him in the same way my children lost interest in a toy. Our Passion statement at LBC is “to love God and love people.” It was not meant to be something we just proclaim but it is something that we are called to live out, not just by our church, but by our Lord (Matt. 22:37-40). No one can just say that they love God and not live it out with passion. No one can just say “I love people” without showing love to people.

Our passion for God starts with having a passion for His Word.

• It is in His Word that we find the one and only God.
• It is in His Word that reveals to us the merciful and gracious Savior.
• It is in His Word that reveals to us the omnipotent, omniscient God who controls and holds all things together.
• It is in His Word that reveals to us the love of God in redeeming sinners like you and me.
• It is in His Word that reveals to us God’s justice and wrath toward the unrighteous.

When we start and stay in His Word, we begin to marvel and be excited about our God who is beyond our comprehension. Along with that excitement comes the passion to live out our lives to the glory of God in all that we do. Whether in our work place, while we study, when we have an opportunity to evangelize, when we share prayer requests, during Sunday morning worship, or when we are alone, our passion for God should continue to grow and not grow old. We live knowing the creator of the universe, how can we not be passionate about the things of God?

by Elder Peter Lim

When one thinks of the term “peer pressure,” images of kids being bullied around by bad influences come to mind. However, in Christianity, this idea is related to the idea of accountability where a person who desires to follow God better willingly submits himself to one or more fellow brothers and seeks to be kept accountable. He submits himself under those who will care enough to ask difficult questions. Accountability is voluntary, sought, and desired, but it may be unpleasant for the moment. It’s the kind of desire that you only want because you know it’s good for you, not because you always truly enjoy it, such as not eating ice cream because you don’t want to gain weight. Of course you want to eat it but in light of the bigger picture (no pun intended) you voluntarily refrain from its creamy goodness and maybe even ask your friends not to let you have any even when you ask for it.

Christian peer pressure can be a good thing when seen in this light, that those who care about you would create an atmosphere where it would be embarrassing and inappropriate to indulge in sin. Some might see this as a negative thing, where someone is pressured to do something that he doesn’t want to do. Keep in mind that what we are talking about is a voluntary submission to the standards of Scripture because we understand how much God hates sin. While it’s true that our love for God ought to be enough from even wanting to sin, we are wretched sinners who are weak and in need of help, even from fellow sinners. This is especially important for elders since they are to be the leaders and examples for the church. In 1 Tim. 5:19-20, it says:

19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

Verse 19 seems to indicate that accusations against elders are not to be taken lightly. They shouldn’t be subjected to any frivolous accusations without multiple witnesses. By the same token, if they are found to be continuing in sin, their rebuke is even more severe and humiliating as they are to be confronted in public, without even mentioning here the due process of Matthew 18. This is because leaders are held to a higher standard and their disqualification is unavoidably more public than it is for the rest of the congregation. Incredibly, this act of rebuke is MEANT to strike fear in the hearts of all. Even the fear of public humiliation can be useful in keeping us accountable not to sin.

Although the rest of the congregation isn’t necessarily held to the same degree of public accountability before the church, they are still held to the same standards of conduct. Elders aren’t singled out as the only ones who are to be free from sin. All Christians are to seek to be holy. (1 Peter 1:15) Fellow brothers and sisters in Christ are here to help with this. So the question is this: Who is helping to keep you accountable? Are you being honest here? Married people are probably thinking about their spouse but are they truly helping to keep you accountable or is that in theory only? Those involved in small group or discipleship relationships can probably rattle off the names of their “accountability partners,” but again, is that in theory only? Do these people exist only to share meals with or to share superficial prayer requests with? It takes time and effort to develop relationships which are at this level of trust and honesty. May we all seek them out and make ourselves vulnerable. Through the help of loving and gentle pressure from our peers, we will mature into better representatives of Christ.

by Elder Mike Chon

As my children begin to understand more about God they of course have many questions. One of the questions that seem to come up often these days is in regards to God’s omnipresence. The conversation usually goes like this:

• Child: “Dad, where is God?”
• Dad: “God is everywhere.”
• Child: “How is He everywhere?”
• Dad: “Because He’s spirit and He’s God.”
• Child: “Is there more than one God? Or is he really fast that He can be everywhere?”
• Dad: “No, there is only one God. But He is everywhere.”
• Child: “Is He in China?”
• Dad: “Yes, everywhere, at the same time. He is even here and there.”
• Child: “Wow, that’s cool.”

One thing that I appreciate about children is their appreciation for the greatness of God. Even though it is difficult for them to grasp the fullness of God at this young age, they understand that God is great. They understand that God is nothing like anything in this world. They are always amazed by these characteristics of God that makes Him greater than anything they can ever imagine, even the superheroes in comic books. It reminds me of how excited I was when I first became a believer and as I read through the pages of Scriptures to understand the character of God. Every time I read the Scriptures I was so excited to share with someone what I just read because it amazed me how infinite and powerful our God is. But something strange happened, the more I read and the more I understood the less excited I became. The only times I would really get excited anymore is when something trivial or obscure was brought to my attention regarding God or the Scriptures. I began to get too familiar with God. How can a finite man, who has been saved from the eternal wrath of God, who depends on our sovereign God to provide every breath and heartbeat get too familiar with the sustainer of the universe?

Unfortunately my experience with God is all too common in churches today. You don’t have to go too far to find churches trying to enhance and artificially excite church attenders on any given Sunday. Is this really what God meant when He calls us to his throne? Is this what it means to experience God? When I became a believer I was excited with the God of the Bible, not the music, lights, drama or some other entertainment that occurs in a church building. Instead of meeting the God of the Bible in worship during a church service, people are meeting the god of their unfulfilled idol of entertainment disguised as a spiritual experience. If you don’t bow down in reverence and awe at the greatness of God as you mediate upon the words of Scripture then I can probably say that you don’t know the God of the Bible. There is nothing in this world that can compare to the greatness of our God, no drama, no music, no inspirational speech, and definitely no superhero can ever replace the pure Word that allows us to know the great God of this universe.

Are you in awe of God? As you read about creation in the first chapter of Genesis, do you reflect on the omnipotence of God? When you read about the parting of the Red Sea, bringing out water from a rock, a talking donkey, defeating Goliath with one small stone, an axe head that floats, God becoming man, Jesus dying on the cross for your sins and resurrecting in three days, do these things sound too familiar or do they bring you to worship our one and only God in reverence and awe? As I am reading through the first few books of the Bible I have been reacquainted with the greatness of God that I sometimes take for granted. My children remind me almost daily how infinite and incomprehensible our God is by their reaction to all that God did and continues to do in our lives. May we never get too familiar or forget that we worship a great God who has revealed Himself in the pages of Scripture.

by Elder Peter Lim

Ever since I was a small child, one of my favorite movies to watch has been “The Sound of Music” starring Julie Andrews. Without going into a detailed description of the story, one of the songs has the words “Nothing comes from nothing / nothing ever could / Somewhere in my youth or childhood / I must’ve done something good.” This song is sung in the context that since something good is happening to Fraulein Maria now, she must have done something good in her past. She is a candidate to be a Catholic nun, but this kind of logic is more in line with the oriental idea of Karma, that something should happen because of something that happened in the past. On the other hand, maybe something bad might happen since something good happened in the past as in the idea that yin and yang must balance itself out in order to have peace and harmony in the universe. This idea is even propagated in science fiction stories such as Star Wars as the “chosen one” will bring “balance” to the force. Some people who would consider themselves to be Christians no doubt believe in this and other pseudo-religious ideas of how the world works to a some degree without thinking twice about how they may conflict with Biblical truths. I wanted to examine ourselves to see if we are possibly in danger of mixing and injecting non-Christian ideas into our everyday lives, usually without even realizing it.

Many people minimize the dangers associated with unbiblical thinking. Some examples of this include: superstitions (black cats, broken mirrors, knocking on wood, good luck charms), wishing upon a star, wishing wells, or even something as innocuous as making a wish while blowing out the candles on a birthday cake or having fun with fortune cookies or a Magic 8-Ball. It sounds a lot worse if we are talking about Ouija® Boards, astrology, voodoo dolls, or casting spells. Pastor Patrick wrote an excellent article a few weeks ago regarding the Chinese Astrological roots to certain websites that claim to be able to foretell a baby’s gender. Most people who look at that stuff claim that it’s just entertainment, but almost in the same breath they would claim that it has a high success rate. Well which is it? Is it purely for entertainment or are you dabbling in the occult? Let’s not forget that demonic activity and spiritual warfare are for real. The more “accurate” something like that is (that’s not based on real science), the more you should stay away from it. We should not be surprised when divination produces accurate results. (Acts 16:16)

Deut. 18:9-14 says:

When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations.
There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you.
You shall be blameless before the Lord your God.
For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so.

As they are about to enter the promised land, the children of Israel are warned not be like the heathen. It is no accident that people have always relied on things such as astrology to “guide” their decision making because the enemy will use anything that prevents people from relying on God and the values taught in His Word. All Satan has to do is give a little bit of credibility to any other system and people are willing to put their faith in something other than God. We Christians must not dabble in these detestable things which usurp God’s authority and guidance. Instead, we are to put our faith in the firm foundation of His Word which He has given to us. There are things that have been revealed to us and things that are kept secret. We need to learn to place our faith in God and trust that He will reveal things in His time.

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law. (Deut. 29:29)

by Elder Mike Chon

When you have multiple children, there are exponentially more opportunities for conflict. Since my children are relatively young, most of their conflicts deal with wanting a certain toy that one of their siblings is playing with. This can lead to unkind words, and even worse, to unkind actions. Whether it is exercising their brute force and taking a toy away or saying that they don’t want to play with their siblings anymore there is always a conflict waiting to happen. This happens occasionally and maybe only with boys, but my older son will randomly punch or hit my younger son. I think this is something that all younger brothers deal with when growing up, but it definitely can cause a conflict in the home. No matter what the offense is, my children go through all the emotions of being angry, sad, running away from the problem, or retaliating all within a matter of minutes. After a few words to them they are quick to come together, ask for forgiveness, receive forgiveness, hug together and immediately return to playing together as though nothing happened. Did I mention that all of this happens within a few minutes? Every time I watch this happen, which can be multiple times in a single day, I am amazed by how quickly they are willing to forgive each other and restore their relationship.

I have seen conflicts in adults that have taken weeks or even months to reconcile and restore. I am always thankful to God whenever a conflict can be reconciled and the relationship is restored no matter how long it takes. On the other hand, I have witnessed relationships that have never been reconciled and restored. I wonder why it is that as we grow up into adulthood, understanding the forgiveness of the cross, that as believers we have such a difficult time extending forgiveness toward those that have offended us. I believe that every believer can forgive any offense, no matter how big or how small, by the power of the Spirit that resides in each of us and the experience of receiving forgiveness from God.

It is clear from Scripture that God commands believers to forgive others because of what Christ has done (Col. 3:13). Not only are we commanded to forgive others but there should be no limit to how often we forgive one another (Matt. 18:21-22). As well Christ shares a parable to show how serious it is for believers to truly forgive completely from the heart (Matt. 18:23-35). If we understand how serious this is issue of forgiveness is to God, why is it so difficult for believers to forgive each other? If a confessing believer chooses to refuse to forgive another person, Scripture is clear that this person does not understand the significance of the cross in their life. I understand that there are very difficult situations that may take more time than others for God to soften your heart, but if you are against reconciliation and are unable to forgive someone else, than the only conclusion is that you never truly experienced or understand the forgiveness of the cross. May we continue to ask God to humble our hearts and help us to not forget the cross so that we would not be easily offended and quick to forgive.

by Elder Peter Lim

Sometimes, Christians oversimplify the role of parenting as if all parenting problems/concerns can be resolved if only one is spirtual enough or walking right with God or if they did their quiet times that day. Or perhaps if they just knew all the secrets and wisdom contained in Scripture they ought to be able to be the super-parent who is capable of responding perfectly through every twist and turn on the road of life. With sufficient Biblical knowledge, shouldn’t we know how to live adequately and buy a house and feed our children with delicious and nutritious food that’s optimized to be nutritionally balanced at every meal on only $20/week? Let’s be real here. Yes, the Bible contains all the wisdom and principles we need in order to glorify God in our parenting. Yes, God is good and He will take care of us. Yes, we are to be filled with His Spirit as He guides our footsteps. However, the specific way we may desire to be cared for and guided may not be His sovereign will. In reality, God continues to refine us and build our character through various circumstances as we are given opportunities to exercise wisdom-filled decisions and to be patient and even learn through our failures. Children have a way of bringing our weaknesses to light. This is a good thing because it causes us to fall on our knees in prayer because we don’t know what to do. We need to admit that to ourselves and sometimes even to our children. They need to learn that parents are dependent on God as much as they are.

As I teach the parenting class at our church, it soon becomes apparent that the Bible deals more with how we as parents are to be than what methods we are to use to get the desired behavior from our kids. That’s why I appreciate Tedd Tripp’s “Shepherding a Child’s Heart.” The whole emphasis of this book is to make sure that we are dealing with being a real Christian parent who is concerned more about our children’s hearts than their external behavior. It’s easy to slip into a mode where we want to be able to measure their obedience and implement a system of rewarding good behavior and penalizing bad behavior. We must not fall into this trap! This ignores the heart out of which evil thoughts and deeds come. (Mark 7:14-23) Parents, don’t lose hope. It’s amazing how fast children grow and come to understand their own sinfulness. When these moments come, we need to be ready to reiterate the message of hope that comes only through the gospel of Christ which you have been teaching them all along. This is particularly true when our children get older into their teen years. The world would say that these years are hard because their kids turn into rebellious monsters. As Christian parents, we need to take these opportunities to relate the gospel back into their lives, how although they just messed up, forgiveness and the grace of God is their only hope.

At our church, many of you are young and many of you have parents who have struggled to raise you up in these ways. Often they have failed to treat you like the young adult that you are, overreacted or underreacted to your failures, and misunderstood you. But I’m sure that they have also loved you and cared for you, however misguided they may have been. No matter your upbringing, you have an opportunity to learn from them and make Biblical changes if necessary in your parenting skills in order to raise up the next Godly generation. If you never marry or have children, you will still have opportunities to affect the next generation through discipling the younger members of the church.

by Elder Mike Chon

I continue to be amazed as a father how much my children teach me about my own heart and my own weaknesses. Since my oldest son is only five  years old, I have the opportunity to observe how unashamed my children are about themselves, as well as being unconcerned about what others think about them in terms of appearance or popularity. For instance they are proud to be the one that passes gas and announces out loud that they were responsible for that sound as well as the odor that quickly follows. As well they are proud when they are able to pick their noses and pull out a big booger which they proudly show the other siblings as a badge of honor. Even my youngest daughter when I tell her that she is a “big girl” never gets offended by that but instead it encourages her. For some reason as we grow up and reach our late elementary years into middle school we begin to preoccupy ourselves with our self and what others think of us.

As believers we can become self-absorbed with our self and what others think about us. We fall into the trap of believing the lies of this world which teach us to increase our self-esteem, to believe in ourselves, and to be politically correct. When we start to believe in these lies we begin to focus more on our self and less on God and the Scriptures. No matter what the world teaches we must stand firm in the truth of God’s Word that teaches us that we are not to be conformed to this world (Rom. 12:2). This starts with following Christ’s call for all believers, to deny ourselves, take up the cross daily and follow Him (Luke 9:23). This call is a call to self-death, not self-belief. We are to do exactly the opposite of what the world teaches us to do. Only when we die to our self can we fully and completely trust in Christ. We don’t look to boost up self-esteem, or self-worth, instead we look to Christ as the One who fulfills, empowers, and gives purpose to our lives. There is nothing in this world, including our accomplishments and self-worth, that can compare to knowing Christ as our Lord and Savior (Phil. 3:8).

The other lie that the world teaches us is to be politically correct. As believers we can become fearful of what others may think of us especially when it comes to speaking about Christ. The Scriptures tell us exactly what others will think when we preach Christ crucified (1 Cor. 1:22-23). The message of a Jewish Messiah that came to die on a cross for the sins of this world will be offensive. The only problem is that this is the only message that we are to preach because this is the only message that can save. We are called to be unashamed of the gospel message for it is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16-17). The question is not whether the message will be offensive but whether you are more afraid of what others may think of you than what they will think about the gospel message? My children teach me to be unashamed by the silly things they do and remind me that I can’t be consumed by what others think of me. Instead I am reminded that my life has been crucified with Christ and that I live this life not for myself but for the one that died on my behalf.

by Elder Peter Lim

Recently, Jonathan Leeman authored an excellent article titled “What To Say To Church Members Leaving For Poor Reasons” on the 9Marks blog. To summarize briefly, he suggested some practical suggestions on how to respond to someone who is trying to make the decision whether to leave a church. I understand why he considers “moving to a different city” to be a “good” reason to leave. I agree with him. However, I think that if he had more time and space to elaborate, he would agree with me that more consideration needs to be given to the reasons why someone would want to move to a different city in the first place. For that matter, people should think more about why they are in the city that they are in now. I am about to reiterate a lot of what I already wrote in “No Better Place on Earth” (Part 1 and Part 2). Here in San Diego, it’s easy to want to be here: great beaches, great weather, friendly people, Phil’s BBQ, usually a good football team, laid-back atmosphere, and it’s not LA. However, when someone asks me why I like San Diego, is it really that the city has all these desirable qualities? Is it because San Diego is truly America’s Finest City? Is it because I have a good job here? Is it because I have family here? What makes a place a good place to be?

In the grand scheme of things, all these reasons are inadequate. Where in the Bible does it say that we should choose where to live based on any of these reasons? For Paul, making tents was something he did just to pay his way for expenses incurred in ministry. He worked in order to do ministry without burdening the churches he ministered to. He didn’t merely do ministry wherever he found a demand for tents and move around for the sake of his business. He wasn’t passionate about creating a tent-making empire nor about increasing business profits. In other words, his reason for moving around was to plant churches and minister to them. Making tents was just incidental to his main purpose, which was to plant churches and strengthen the believers. Too many Christians have been so influenced by the world’s values that they don’t think twice about pursuing a college education or following a particular career path that would take them away from a healthy church situation, not that those things are necessarily bad. In fact, they would elevate some of these goals so highly that they would look down on someone choosing to pursue the pastorate, missionary life, relocation for a church plant at the risk of their careers, or full-time stay-at-home motherhood.

I hope that my call to examine our heart’s motivation for being where we are is received as I am intending… as a loving reminder to live our lives purposefully to minister to the people around us as an effective witness for Christ to the world and not as with a “holier than thou” arrogant attitude if you aren’t thinking like I am. God has placed each one of us where He did in order to minister to the people around us. He has built His church to carry out the mission of bringing the gospel to them. Let’s accomplish our mission with a clear focus on that goal wherever He leads us. That by definition is a good place to be because our good God places us there.

by Elder Mike Chon

I have been blessed to have three children that are full of energy and who love to be with each other. There is no shortage of laughing at our house but at times, believe it or not, our children complain. I’m sure this is something that all parents have experienced more than they would like. Whether it’s a toy they want, having to brush their teeth, or a response to the type of food that is given to them…there is no shortage of complaining. As parents we continue to remind them that they have no reason to complain if they learn to be content (Phil. 4:11). We continually teach and remind them that we have been created by God and that everything we have is truly a gift from the Lord. Therefore we have no reason to complain but instead we should be thankful for all things.

Even though we can observe children and how silly their complaints can be (for instance, when they complain that they can’t get a certain toy when they have almost the exact same one already at home), we need to look at ourselves and see how easily it is for us to complain. How many times have we complained about how long the line is, or how slow the service is, or how our kids are always complaining? The discontent in our heart is the same discontent in our children’s hearts. That is definitely a great lesson that we have been learning through our children. No matter how silly their complaints are we realize that our hearts are also complaining. God calls us to be thankful in all things (Colossians 3:15) and to stop complaining (Phil. 2:14). What message are we sending to our children when we quote verses and teach them that they should be content when in our own lives and hearts we complain?

Most of us have complained about something but we may not even give a second thought to the seriousness of that type of attitude. It reveals that we are not content first and foremost in our relationship with Jesus Christ. We complain because life does not go the way that we would like it to go. We are almost shocked when someone gets in the way of our plans, our desires, and our comforts. Complaining only shows our lack of trust in God and our lack of a thankful heart to God. As believers we are challenged to be a light in this world (Phil. 2:14-15) and most of the time that comes in the context of the little choices and attitudes that we display every single day. Our complaints are different than those of children, but they all stem from the same heart issues. May we find our contentment in Christ alone and follow the example of our Lord as He faced injustice, affliction, ridicule, punishment, and was rejected but never complained (Isaiah 53:7).

by Elder Peter Lim

Conflicts between people are inevitable. Because this has the potential to alienate one another and cause the church to lose its effective witness to the world, we take it very seriously at LBC. I hope no one is getting tired of learning more on this subject as we’ve been covering the topic at retreats, sermons, Bible studies, etc. It takes time and effort to teach this subject in a way that isn’t simply a “how-to” manual of the required steps involved in conflict resolution. This is because conflict is one of the best indicators of the heart’s condition and shouldn’t be treated as if following a few simple steps is going to solve the problem. The heart is revealed when the facts of the conflict are known. This revelation should cause the offender to be pierced to the heart for his own depravity. It should also cause the offended to realize that although he has been wronged, he himself has offended God many times and has experienced the grace of God so that he couldn’t possibly withhold forgiveness to a fellow sinner. So both parties should end up being more reminded of the gospel. This is a good result of a bad situation.

Unfortunately, many real-world scenarios are not so ideal. Oftentimes, people lack the courage and the wisdom to make true peace with one another. I wanted to write about one of these scenarios today. Specifically, people in general have a hard time apologizing correctly. Some reasons for this difficulty include:

• A desire to “move forward” as soon as possible
• A desire to minimize the culpability of one’s own action
• A desire to leave options open in case it is later revealed that there is another plausible explanation so that one can escape blame
• Not wanting the other party to think that they have no culpability
• It’s not pleasant to admit wrongdoing

Sometimes people are too quick to “apologize.” They don’t take any time to really consider how they might’ve offended someone. They don’t make the effort to put themselves in the other person’s shoes to truly grasp the severity of the pain that they have caused. An excessively quick response of “I’m sorry” can have the opposite effect. Instead of moving forward to true peace, it causes the offended to feel victimized again because of an inadequate expression of sorrow. This can get even worse if the offender tries to reprimand the offended for not granting a quick and full forgiveness. Whether an apology is made too quickly or more appropriately, it should be accompanied by supporting actions and attitudes. In fact, apologies should be made excessively to the extent that the offended is abundantly clear that one is truly sorry. Yes, it’s humbling to repeatedly apologize but it’s worth it because of what is at stake here. Every offender needs to be alert for signs of an inadequate apology received by the offended, and make every effort to apologize better. If the offended doesn’t want to forgive, it’s one of those situations where the offender should rather be wronged and continue to humble himself and apologize again. What an opportunity to be like Jesus and be wronged… for the sake of those who don’t deserve it. It’s a wonderful opportunity to exhibit grace. Therefore, let us endeavor to glorify God in our apologies by doing it excessively and not giving the devil an opportunity to drive a wedge of division between people.